7 Responses to “Last night…”

1. mealymel Says:
   November 19th, 2004 at 9:35 pm

   “Just don’t expect me to follow suit. I’d rather focus on how i treat other humans, rather then concern myself with how i treat animals. If i can get a few people to treat their fellow man with compassion and understanding, i’m happy.” I second that! yea! What movie is this?

2. arglor Says:
   November 19th, 2004 at 10:06 pm

   [u:1c398960d0]I Heart Huckabees[/u:1c398960d0] is the story of a couple who runs an existential detective agency. The true story though revolves around four individuals and how they are introduced to existential situations and how their character dictates their reactions. -The person who believes he is unique because he isn’t the popular kid, and yet he struggles constantly for recognition from the world he exists. -The strong man who realizes there is a bigger picture but lacks the intellectual horsepower to break through the surface by himself so he stands outside the surface yelling at everyone and using what he is good at which is physical force to try and solve a mental problem. -The charismatic individual who is wrapped up in other people’s perceptions of whom he is and as such abandons all real self in order to project what people respect and want from someone. -The gorgeous woman who acts as though she isn’t beautiful, because modesty is always appealing. She works as a model and she has this existential dilemma dropped on her unexpectedly but she also lacks the intellectual horsepower to make anything come about from it. These four people define themselves by the end of the film and we see how they actually are very similar. A complaint about the movie is that everyone in the film seems to be intellectual weak. They run around talking these complex ideas but never really grasp anything, and my argument is that if it weren’t this way the movie would be a drama and not a comedy. It might have been done well as a drama, but then again it more then likely wouldn’t have worked well. Who could imagine being and nothingness or nausea in movie format? Now maybe [u:1c398960d0]the stranger[/u:1c398960d0] or [u:1c398960d0]the plague[/u:1c398960d0] in movie format… that would be awesome… even Dirk Gently’s [u:1c398960d0]long dark tea time of the soul[/u:1c398960d0] would be a great movie…. in fact this movie reminds me of dirk gently…

3. mayfly Says:
   November 20th, 2004 at 8:19 am

   [quote:4d58fc0f17]Dietary habits tend to bore me, because they are so grounded in the beast of humanity. It is like arguing over whether or not i should breathe. Ultimately such an argument is pointless in my mind because to deny breath is to deny some form of neccessity. I’m not suggesting that these two ideas are equal they are just similar. If your a vegetarian i say bravo and congrats. You have managed a feat of willpower far surpassed most humans. [/quote:4d58fc0f17] actually a large portion of humanity (possibly even a majority or almost) is vegetarian. large portions of some of the most populated areas of the world (china, japan, india) are vegetarian. in america, there are more than 12 million. and there are more reasons than compassion for animals to be vegetarian. – if everyone in the world was vegetarian, there would be enough food for everyone. so much energy is wasted in eating things so high up on the food chain. (with each step on the food chain, energy is wasted in transfer. a huge amount of food and resources goes to support this. in a year, american farms produce more animal waste than human (over a hundred times more actually). – the rain forest is cleared for cattle farming as well as lumber. rain forests are important not only for ecological reasons but also for the potential lifesaving effects of medical derivatives of its plant species. – vegetarianism is better for your body. cancer, heart disease and others can be postponed until very old age, by adopting a vegetarian diet. (see life spans in japan, thailand, etc.) source: http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=101 [quote:4d58fc0f17]I’d rather focus on how i treat other humans, rather then concern myself with how i treat animals. If i can get a few people to treat their fellow man with compassion and understanding, i’m happy.[/quote:4d58fc0f17] i don’t see how this is relevant. it’s not either or because being vegetarian wouldn’t take time away from your mission to get people to treat their fellow men with compassion and understanding. now. i know what you’re thinking. if you believe in this so much, why aren’t you a vegetarian? 😐 i was for like 4 years until i had to cook for my dad. then i gave it up and rediscovered my love for ground beef in hamburgers and on pizza. and i haven’t been able to drag myself back… lately i do eat vegetarian most of the time… since there’s no one around who eats meat i stick with vegetables, dairy, and fish. it’s actually gotten so bad that when i do eat meat (like yesterday when i got a burger from burger king) i get sick. but if i was a good girl i would stick with this all the time. not only for the above reasons, but also because i think it cuts down on the total amount of suffering in the world… which no matter who or what is experiencing it is a good thing.

4. arglor Says:
   November 21st, 2004 at 6:15 am

   [quote:60c17f417d=”sophia_de_philo”]actually a large portion of humanity (possibly even a majority or almost) is vegetarian. large portions of some of the most populated areas of the world (china, Japan, India) are vegetarian. in America, there are more than 12 million. and there are more reasons than compassion for animals to be vegetarian. [/quote:60c17f417d] Your statement doesn’t prove I’m wrong when I say most people can’t do this. In fact you prove my statement and allude to it being potentially wrong, but never prove it wrong. When I compare eating meat to breathing I?m talking about human desires and the denial of those desires. I will grant you that it wasn’t the best analogy, and I knew it at the time I published the entry. I was just not going to spend the time to think of a more accurate analogy but now I will. If you raise a child with the internal desire for religion then it would be questionable to attempt to destroy that desire against the individual’s will. Analogously I was raised with the desire to be carnivorous. Whether or not it is good or bad for humanity as a whole, at my stage it would be difficult to deny my body this desire without replacing it with something. At my financial stage it would also be dangerous to make such a transition. In fact to support this view I can cite several vegetarians who admit the lifestyle is much more expensive then a carnivorous lifestyle. I can also argue that from the sheer standpoint of economics that your belief the majority of Americans are vegetarians is incorrect. Understanding that Vegetarianism (performed in a healthy manner) is more expensive the argument could be raised that it must also be less popular. Economics works by the more demand something has the lower the price, or at least the more readily available the product is to the market. Both points are obviously lacking in our society. It might be the case that in the major metropolitan areas that vegetarianism is popular, but it is not the case I believe that a majority of America is vegetarian. [quote:60c17f417d=”sophia_de_philo”]- if everyone in the world was vegetarian, there would be enough food for everyone. so much energy is wasted in eating things so high up on the food chain. (with each step on the food chain, energy is wasted in transfer. a huge amount of food and resources goes to support this. in a year, American farms produce more animal waste than human (over a hundred times more actually). – the rain forest is cleared for cattle farming as well as lumber. rain forests are important not only for ecological reasons but also for the potential lifesaving effects of medical derivatives of its plant species. – vegetarianism is better for your body. cancer, heart disease and others can be postponed until very old age, by adopting a vegetarian diet. (see life spans in Japan, Thailand, etc.) [/quote:60c17f417d] Ok, I can’t really argue with a lot of these points because they all have a trend of accuracy, but they also overstate the point. Our consumption of meat might use more calories (work per energy produced) then we get back, but to assume that if we adopted a purely agricultural society it would be better is short sided. The reason we use more energy then we create is because of our sedimentary methods. As soon as we became an agricultural society and began producing more food then we consume, it is argued that this trend began (Ishmael I believe is where this is best argued). This isn’t all, it is also believed that when we produced the agricultural revolution that we adopted a method of War versus Nature. Assuming that humanity is segmented from nature, we adopted a method of rape and pillage on nature as a whole which produced the agricultural method. This war on nature produced a cycle, create more food then the population needs means a growth in population. A growth in population means expansion of borders. This continues today. The second point I agree that the slash and burn techniques performed toward the rain forest simply for grazing land is a dangerous methodology, but it is not a mandatory response to eating meat. Just because I consume meat, does not mean that the only method of meat being obtained is from the countries performing this action. In fact we can correct this action without destroying the meat industry. The last point you raise I argue vehemently against. Vegetarianism If combined with vitamin supplements of some kind can be healthier then a carnivorous diet. I argue though that this both methods are inherently bad for you. There should in effect be a merger. Humanity as a species is not vegetarian nor is it carnivorous. My argument is our current health trend is not due to our consumption of meat, but our inability to regulate our diet in a healthy manner. I think someone who combines vegetarian and meat intake with healthy regulation and dietary understanding will be healthier then someone who is simply a vegetarian. AND for my final argument I will approach your belief that India, china, Japan, etc are vegetarian and they live longer therefore vegetarians live longer. India and Japan are not vegetarian. In fact they are rapidly incorporating the consumption of meat. In fact the American Fast Food industry is booming in these countries. One of the best examples of this mentality is in Nepal. This is a Buddhist nation where they have actually begun eating meat. How you might ask? Especially since Buddhism argues you cannot harm a living being? Butchers. There is a newly found and spreading custom of misplacing the harm. Buddhists will now purchase livestock and bring them to a butcher who kills the beast. Then the Buddhist will consume the meat and perform a minor action to erase what harmful karma (it is assumed that the harmful karma is very little though) is produced during the action by doing an extra good deed. [quote:60c17f417d=”sophia_de_philo”] I don’t see how this is relevant. it’s not either or because being vegetarian wouldn’t take time away from your mission to get people to treat their fellow men with compassion and understanding.[/quote:60c17f417d] It is highly relevant. I devote myself to arguing points I can prove and I believe in. I do not believe in being a vegetarian. I think it is a super-erogatory action that is not necessary to being a good person. I compare the person who argues for vegetarianism to the catholic. It is possible to live your life repressing your desire to mate and feeling shame for such actions, but it is also denying yourself a major part of what life as a human is. I think this is similar to the argument vegetarians argue. They claim this action is shameful and harmful to the environment. I argue that rejection of a specific consumption of food is harmful without scientific background and therefore a relatively new adaptation. The earliest form of vegetarian diet I know of is 600 BCE in Zoroastrian diet. They believed that it was a stage in human development and that after becoming vegetarian you reached a stage where you absorbed energy from the sun and did not need to eat anymore. On the second front, let us assume vegetarianism has a really good argument for it that there are no holes within. How can I expect to argue to someone who treats his fellow man like shit, that he should treat a dog better? From the simple vantage point of practicality arguing for vegetarianism is simply absurd. Until we can convince our fellow humans that, “Hey your treating this person who is exactly like you, like shit simply because he is a homosexual? don’t you realize that the same actions can be and have been performed against you due to your ignorance? Look in the mirror, we are alike here. focus on the similarities,” we are simply arguing a non-sequitor. [quote:60c17f417d=”sophia_de_philo”] now. I know what you’re thinking. if you believe in this so much, why aren’t you a vegetarian? 😐 I was for like 4 years until I had to cook for my dad. then I gave it up and rediscovered my love for ground beef in hamburgers and on pizza. and I haven’t been able to drag myself back… lately I do eat vegetarian most of the time… since there’s no one around who eats meat I stick with vegetables, dairy, and fish. it’s actually gotten so bad that when I do eat meat (like yesterday when I got a burger from burger king) I get sick. but if I was a good girl I would stick with this all the time. not only for the above reasons, but also because I think it cuts down on the total amount of suffering in the world… which no matter who or what is experiencing it is a good thing.[/quote:60c17f417d] Fish is meat. To begin I would never argue this, this is committing the fallacy of hypocrisy. Just because someone doesn’t adopt the lifestyle doesn’t make the argument weak. If a doctor is sitting on a table smoking a cigarette and tells you that you shouldn’t smoke cigarettes because it is known to cause cancer, doesn’t make the argument weaker. People need to dissect arguments from people. People are irrelevant to the argument. I might be insane, but my argument might be sane. But you do prove one point that I notice. You say, “I?ve haven’t been able to drag myself back…” which assumes vegetarianism is difficult… This is my point. Your denying something that makes your life easier. I would argue we are genetically predisposed to having a desire for meat. Much like you can break the programming of a homosexual to where he feels shame and guilt for thinking homosexual thoughts, you can also break the programming for consuming meat. The question comes down is it a good thing to do? I don’t see the evidence to support this. I do however see the evidence to re-evaluate our farming techniques overall. Even our methods used in harvesting grain, vegetables, and fruits. Now you plugged PETA which is an organization that uses massive manipulative techniques to get their point across, not to mention that the organization has a leader who has funded animal rights terrorists. (Penn and Teller did a piece on this and using the organization?s public tax records, they demonstrated a link between the organization and Rodney Coronado. Rodney admitted to firebombing the Michigan State University Lab which was known to use animals in testing its research. Also from the show there is a link between known cures (i.e. diabetes regulatory drugs) and animal testing. These drugs couldn?t be produced if we didn?t first test them on animals.) The question is too broad. It isn?t a matter of whether or not we should do animal testing, but whether or not we should uphold moral rules and regulations to our treatment of said animals during treatment. Now for my plug. http://www.beyondveg.com/index.shtml is a website that produces arguments from all sides of the issues, at least as far as I can see. They seem to argue for a healthy diet instead of a strict vegetarian diet. I haven?t read in depth throughout the site but I did peruse certain parts. The evolution of man?s dietary habits is very interesting. I?m currently checking my Zoroastrian belief.

5. mayfly Says:
   November 21st, 2004 at 4:40 pm

   [quote:b26f7efeaa=”Arglor”][quote:b26f7efeaa=”sophia_de_philo”]actually a large portion of humanity (possibly even a majority or almost) is vegetarian. large portions of some of the most populated areas of the world (china, Japan, India) are vegetarian. in America, there are more than 12 million. and there are more reasons than compassion for animals to be vegetarian. [/quote:b26f7efeaa] Your statement doesn’t prove I’m wrong when I say most people can’t do this. In fact you prove my statement and allude to it being potentially wrong, but never prove it wrong. [/quote:b26f7efeaa] Right. I was just saying a lot of people do it, or have done it, and so it can’t be [i:b26f7efeaa]that[/i:b26f7efeaa] difficult or superhuman. [quote:b26f7efeaa]In fact to support this view I can cite several vegetarians who admit the lifestyle is much more expensive then a carnivorous lifestyle.[/quote:b26f7efeaa] It depends. Fresh veggies are cheap. So is rice. And soy… and nuts and legumes… up here anyway. At Albertson’s down there everything was really expensive but up here there’s a market so it’s not that big a deal. [quote:b26f7efeaa]I can also argue that from the sheer standpoint of economics that your belief the majority of Americans are vegetarians is incorrect. [/quote:b26f7efeaa] Dude, I never said the vast majority of Americans were vegetarians!!!! How out of touch with this country do you think I am? The vast majority of this country is bible-thumping, Bush-loving, meat-and-potato-eating… I was just saying that even in this country there are many vegetarians. Not that most of us were… As for the rest of the world, I don’t know the stats. I don’t know if it’s a majority (more than half). But I would be willing to bet a significant fraction is. [quote:b26f7efeaa]AND for my final argument I will approach your belief that India, china, Japan, etc are vegetarian and they live longer therefore vegetarians live longer. India and Japan are not vegetarian. In fact they are rapidly incorporating the consumption of meat. In fact the American Fast Food industry is booming in these countries. [/quote:b26f7efeaa] All I referred to was their historically longer life expectancies. Life spans there in some villages were like 10-15 years longer than western life spans. I learned this in like elementary school. There may very well be a rise of the incorporation of meat into diets now, but that will take a while to start affecting life expectancies. [quote:b26f7efeaa]On the second front, let us assume vegetarianism has a really good argument for it that there are no holes within. How can I expect to argue to someone who treats his fellow man like shit, that he should treat a dog better? From the simple vantage point of practicality arguing for vegetarianism is simply absurd.[/quote:b26f7efeaa] Yep. Unless you like animals better than people, it is. But I wasn’t saying you should do that. I was just saying that the act of being a vegetarian wouldn’t necessarily take time away from your causes. When I was vegetarian I did it primarily for the personal satisfaction it gave me to know that I had minimized the amount of suffering caused to other living beings by my own existence. It allowed me a sort of moral integrity. I believed it was wrong. I didn’t do it. I very seldomly bothered to argue it to other people. The only person I ever argued with was Jason because his being an omnivore was really inconvenient because we had to buy two separate sets of food and we rarely wanted to eat the same things, etc. [quote:b26f7efeaa]But you do prove one point that I notice. You say, “I?ve haven’t been able to drag myself back…” which assumes vegetarianism is difficult…[/quote:b26f7efeaa] It’s just that meat tastes good. And it’s easier not to restrict yourself. But once you get into the habit it’s no big deal (unless you’re having to fight someone you live with about it). But don’t worry… I’m not gonna go back to being vegetarian as a rule. You not being vegetarian would make that very difficult. And I want kids eventually, which would be very difficult to deal with as a vegetarian. Too much hassle in this society. Anyway I’d really like to drop this. It all comes down to the fact that I used to enjoy the personal satisfaction I got from knowing that I had minimized the amount of suffering caused to other living beings by my own existence. It wasn’t a political thing. It was for me alone. Sorry I brought it up. I didn’t mean to attack you. I just didn’t understand your argument. You do bring up some interesting points. Incidentally that guy came and looked at my car. He brought his wife and kid. He had a noon appointment they were late for but I’m pretty sure he wants it. Hopefully I can get the money from him tomorrow (he has Bank of America too so that would be easy) and give him the car. He’s calling me later after his appointment. Hope he doesn’t change his mind… I love and miss you.

6. arglor Says:
   November 22nd, 2004 at 2:16 am

   [quote:0eee944e3a=”sophia_de_philo”]Anyway I’d really like to drop this. It all comes down to the fact that I used to enjoy the personal satisfaction I got from knowing that I had minimized the amount of suffering caused to other living beings by my own existence. It wasn’t a political thing. It was for me alone. Sorry I brought it up. I didn’t mean to attack you. I just didn’t understand your argument. You do bring up some interesting points. [/quote:0eee944e3a] Uhmm ok it is dropped. No more Veggie talk. Your task if you so choose to accept is to make vegetarianism appealing to me from a taste perspective. This is a difficult task. The prize? the potential to have a vegetarian boyfriend. You know what i like/dislike now so you should realize how impossible this feat is. just so you casual readers don’t think this is some ploy to tempt her into cooking, you really must realize i do all the cleaning of the kitchen after she cooks. She hates cleaning the kitchen. She loves cooking. I hate cooking. I don’t despise cleaning the kitchen. In fact i am currently looking for a book that talks about the dao of washing dishes. this is turning into rambling… (quick spew of comments… HAH) i love you… and tuesday… just think of glorious tuesday… after monday bloody monday..

7. mayfly Says:
   November 22nd, 2004 at 5:36 pm

   [quote:d96b228083]Your task if you so choose to accept is to make vegetarianism appealing to me from a taste perspective. This is a difficult task. The prize? the potential to have a vegetarian boyfriend. You know what i like/dislike now so you should realize how impossible this feat is. [/quote:d96b228083] still… i like a challenge! something to experiment with when… we live together again. 🙂